The Men Behind the Mars Photos and Their Stories..

Is NASA Being Pressured by  'ALL OF US' to finally start presenting
some more 'acceptable' photos taken of Mars??

Thanks for the Chat Room and Thanks Jeff for allowing me to use this IM.
Mary Sutherland

<PhobosUK> I have talked a lot with the guy who is in charge of mars image acquisition at the ASU
<PhobosUK> he was solely in charge of images sent from Pathfinder etc
<PhobosUK> Noel Gorlick aka BAMF
<BUFOmary> hmm
<BUFOmary> 'solely in charge'?
<PhobosUK> he used to hang around the anomalies board
<PhobosUK> for ASU yes
<PhobosUK> he was responsible for aquiring the images
<PhobosUK> Michael Malin owned hardware so he too was a big name
<PhobosUK> but Noel was appointed by NASA to run the processing stage
burlingtonnews: <BUFOmary> and he feels assured of the photos given to him by NASA?
<PhobosUK> there was a big falling out between him and RCH
<BUFOmary> richard hoagland
<PhobosUK> yes
<PhobosUK> its a long convoluted story :)
<BUFOmary> well i have 2 hours..smiles
<PhobosUK> but its also part of the origins of the station
burlingtonnews: this is data coming in now.
burlingtonnews: you may want to check out some of those names.
burlingtonnews: that should keep you more than busy
atlantictrust: where is this chat room
burlingtonnews: PhobosUK> it mostly started off with BAMF assisting Richard in porcessing images from Mars
burlingtonnews: this is our pioneer radio station chat room
burlingtonnews: you can go to
burlingtonnews: read the interaction section as to how to join the chat room.
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> Themus IR images
<PhobosUK> it was part of the origins of the "city under the dust" saga
<PhobosUK> Richard went on C2C to drop what he called his H-bomb
<PhobosUK> it had a long leadup to it
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> and people were anxious to find out what it was
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> the were lots of plots and subplots to this
atlantictrust: who is phobosuk
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> many c2c prequells
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> and claims and counterclaims
burlingtonnews: PhobosUK> eventually RCH made his anouncement on C2C that an underground city had been found
atlantictrust: what is c2c?
burlingtonnews: coast to coast
atlantictrust: ok
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> well when Richard made his anouncement Art let a caller ask RCH some questions
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> this was before the normal callin time
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> but it was a caller Art knew and felt it would add to the show
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> guess who the caller was
<PhobosUK> :)
<BUFOmary> who????
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> me
<PhobosUK> :)
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> I too was part of this saga
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> Richard left it late before uploading his images
<BUFOmary> you have ALL my attention
burlingtonnews: PhobosUK> but it was enough time for me to do some digging of my own
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> I worked out a possible problem with the images
atlantictrust: i am connecvted
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> and mentioned it to Richard
burlingtonnews: PhobosUK> thing is there are a lot of people that didn't want Richard to mess up this time
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> well Richard was working a little too much on his own
burlingtonnews: <PhobosUK> and many were concerned that he may damange the image of anomaly researchers
burlingtonnews: PhobosUK> if he had big news they wanted to be sure it was watertight and not a setup
atlantictrust: you can stop feeding
<BUFOmary> that's understandable
<PhobosUK> I didn't have much time before the show, but I did find a potentially serious problem
<PhobosUK> I pointed it out during the show before things went too far but Richard dismissed what I said
<PhobosUK> he gave an explanation that didn't seem to add up
<PhobosUK> I let it pass as the show needed to move on
<PhobosUK> Later people wanted reporduction of the special images that Richard presented
<PhobosUK> Now the images were brought to the public by Richard and Keith Laney
<PhobosUK> then the story gets a bit more complex

<PhobosUK> they say that the image they aquired from the NASA website was switched after they downloaded it
<PhobosUK> and that several versions were then put up with a view to spoiling Richards anouncement and making him look bad
<PhobosUK> with the new images on the website nobody else was going to be able to reproduce the same results
<PhobosUK> Richard felt that Noel was behind the image switching
<PhobosUK> and even pointed out that Noel's handle BAMF had a meaning in computing
<PhobosUK> ie, BAMFING - the process of directing certain people onto special areas of a website that oothers don't see
<PhobosUK> He suggested that Noel had directed him to an area so that only Richard and Keith would download the images
<PhobosUK> complex stuff huh
<PhobosUK> The story goes on and gets more complex
<PhobosUK> but the bottom line is that what I said on the show turned out to be true
<PhobosUK> several months later this was proven
* Piofan682 has joined #PioneerRadio
* Piofan682 has quit IRC (Quit: Has left the Pioneer Chatroom)
<PhobosUK> the underground city was probably a processing artifact
<PhobosUK> but RCH could have been set up to look foolish
<atlantict> what is a processing artefact?
<PhobosUK> it's to do with processing compressed images
<PhobosUK> when it's done with thermal images you can introduce changes into a picture that look 3d<PhobosUK> Richard challenged BAMF to talk with him about the
goings on live on C2C
<PhobosUK> but BAMF refused
<PhobosUK> he still talked in the anomalies chatroom
<PhobosUK> and posted on the bb
<PhobosUK> but wouldn't go on air with RCH
<BUFOmary> i have to quickly catch up on reading what i missed.
<BUFOmary> jut keep going...smiles
<PhobosUK> OK
<PhobosUK> Richard was now starting to get attacked by people on his bullitin board
<PhobosUK> Keith refused to post the method he used to produce the image, and there were many accusations flying around
<PhobosUK> Richard hosted the enterprise website and board at
<PhobosUK> he changed his website so that the board members could not log in
<PhobosUK> and this caused friction between him and the people that ran anomalies
<PhobosUK> a row erupted which led him to pull away from anomalies
<PhobosUK> the person that used to run his board started up a internet based radio station "ZPR"
<PhobosUK> I was one of those that started up the station and ran the UK relays for it
<PhobosUK> after a year or so ZPR ran in to some difficulties and was shut down
<PhobosUK> the shows had gained some follwoing so Doug and I decided to offer a new station for them
<PhobosUK> that is how Pioneer was formed
<VortexQ> yep :)
<VortexQ> thanks Phobos
<BUFOmary> oh really..
<PhobosUK> Richard still had ill feelings towards Anomalies and anyone associated with it
<PhobosUK> whilst I pointed out the initial problem with the image I don't beleive RCH held that against me.
<PhobosUK> on other occasions I have provided info for him (eg. the blue sky image I showed you)
<BUFOmary> oh you provided that for him?
<PhobosUK> Richard has always been tough to get in touch with
<PhobosUK> well, after leaving anomalies Richard decided to make his new chatroom and board more commercial
<PhobosUK> he started charging people to use them
<PhobosUK> this put a lot of poeple off and alienated a number of his previous supporters
<PhobosUK> the split between anomalies and RCH still goes on
<PhobosUK> there is one show host that has got caught in the middle a bit too
PhobosUK> Gary Legerre aka Mars Revealer
hobosUK> he has a show "the marsian revelation"
<PhobosUK> RCH is his main guest and has been on quite a lot
hobosUK> Richard also promotes Gary's show on his website and has mentioned it on C2C
<PhobosUK> I have still heavily simplified detials
<PhobosUK> but that is the main gist of the story
<PhobosUK> there were others involved
<PhobosUK> there was one guy who was threatening to release details on the images if Richard didn't release them soon
PhobosUK> yes, he was receiving calls from Robin, Richards girlfriend
<PhobosUK> he went on air as well - Jeff Rense I think
<PhobosUK> he was on with Richard too
<PhobosUK> space catfish
<PhobosUK> that was the name he used in the board and chatroom
<PhobosUK> can't remember his real name
<PhobosUK> no the anomalies one
<PhobosUK> this is pre zpr and pioneer
<BUFOmary> is the info on the up and up that catfish has?
<PhobosUK> well he was certainly involved
<PhobosUK> apparently he was getting scared about mib types
<PhobosUK> phone taps and the like
<BUFOmary> who catfish..or rch
<PhobosUK> catfish
<BUFOmary> k
<PhobosUK> I forget the full details how he was involved
<PhobosUK> but I could probably track them down
<PhobosUK> a lot are probably still posted on the old bullitin board
<PhobosUK> later on, after the H bomb was dropped there was even division amongst the anomalists that wanted to show how the images came about
<PhobosUK> Ky and one other researcher were working on reproducing the same images
<BUFOmary> hmm..any results??
<PhobosUK> they found out how to do it and they fell out with each other over when it was released
<PhobosUK> ky jumped the gun and released the results to Jeff Rense who posted them on his website
<PhobosUK> keith used to process images for NASA
<PhobosUK> he is still involved in anomaly hunting
<PhobosUK> but he was not the only image processor
<PhobosUK> holger was involved too
<PhobosUK> he works in Germany
<PhobosUK> he was supposed to confirm the process before the images were released
<PhobosUK> Richard decided to release them without Holgers confirmation
<PhobosUK> so Holger was somewhat annoyed
<PhobosUK> all these names are still floating around
<PhobosUK> eg. Keith is currently working on the images sent back from Spirit
<PhobosUK> Holger too
<PhobosUK> there were many arguments here
<PhobosUK> eg. how deep could the orbiter look
<PhobosUK> Richard claimed it was able to look deeper than NASA were saying was possible
<PhobosUK> but errors were being made
<PhobosUK> I managed to correct a few
<PhobosUK> most of my corrections helped richards case
<PhobosUK> eg. I found proof that IR images can indeed find objects buried under sand
<PhobosUK> There were also errors made to do with depths
<PhobosUK> measurments were being used above an arbitary sea level
<PhobosUK> now there is no current sea on mars
<PhobosUK> but you have to have some level you call zero
<PhobosUK> that way you have meaningful altitudes
<PhobosUK> now some of the measurements for depths didn't take in to account that the cydonia surface is not at altitude zero
<PhobosUK> when you took that into account the real depths became more realistic
<PhobosUK> I also found that if you took a cyan separation from the city image the 3d aspect became even more obvious
<PhobosUK> this either meant there were indeed object there

PhobosUK> or that my initial suggestion (processing artifacts) was indeed correct
<PhobosUK> the way I saw it both possible explanations were plausable
<PhobosUK> I even went as far as to point out that there could be real object there that were natural in origin
<PhobosUK> the biggest problem was that the apparent structures were all parallel to the picture edges
<BUFOmary> did you see my work i did on the kivas
<PhobosUK> the biggest problem was that the apparent structures were all parallel to the picture edges
<BUFOmary> this is the site that richard contacted me about saying he felt i was onto something.
<PhobosUK> by chance that would be very unlikely
<PhobosUK> but when you have compression artifacts thats exactly the sort of thing you see
<PhobosUK> eg.
<PhobosUK> if you take a photo with a digital camera
<PhobosUK> and the light is poor
<PhobosUK> and the light is poor
<PhobosUK> you may notice some square/rectangular area that are very blocky in form
<BUFOmary> yes
PhobosUK> the image that Richard presented had what he called "blockies"
<PhobosUK> these blockies were presented as an underground city
<PhobosUK> but because the object walls were parallel to the picture edges it made me very concerned about the possible cause
<PhobosUK> Richard doesn't have the same computer background that I do and might not be aware of this type of processing artifact
<PhobosUK> bottom line is a couple months later Ky and the other image processor found a procedure that produced an almost exact replica of the image that Richard and
Keith presented
<PhobosUK> and in Kys example it was clear that the end result was just due to the way the image was processed
<PhobosUK> in other words it looked like the 3d objects were not really there
<PhobosUK> Personally the 3d aspect was new to me
<PhobosUK> but I the rest was very familiar
<PhobosUK> it's a shame as Richard has pointed out some interesting anomalies in the past
<PhobosUK> personally I think he is a very charismatic speaker and would have been really hand on Dr Stephen Greers team

<PhobosUK> let me paste you part of it
<BUFOmary> hmm.
<BUFOmary> well you were posting it public...laughs
<BUFOmary> and i shared the posts with a few people..
<BUFOmary> I made a copy of the im if you want to look at it.
<PhobosUK> 'True colours'
<PhobosUK> However, mission scientists will have to perform further calculations before they can produce an image that shows Mars' "true" colour.
<PhobosUK> In a statement read out at the press conference by a colleague, lead panoramic camera scientist Dr Jim Bell said: "This image conveys the wonder, excitement,
pride and honour that goes along with this wonderful mission and the hardware that got us to Mars."
<PhobosUK> It's a fantastic image," added mission engineer Randel Lindemann.
<PhobosUK> However, the image shows signs of the correction process to get the colour of the Martian surface as close as possible to its true colour.
<PhobosUK> The normally blue starscape - or "meatball" - that forms the Nasa logo has turned a muddy red. And blue insulating foam surrounding cables on the lander has
turned bright pink.
<PhobosUK> The rover's panoramic camera took the image looking in an east-north-east direction. It is a composite picture that is four original images wide and three
original images tall.
<PhobosUK> now Dr Jim Bell ...
<PhobosUK> he was in communication with the guy I to yesterday
<PhobosUK> so this COULD be a reaction !
<BUFOmary> well i had something on it yesterday on
<PhobosUK> also I commented on delays and ...
<PhobosUK> Meanwhile, analysis of data from the rover has been delayed due to a storm in Australia that has disrupted communications between Earth and the rover on
<PhobosUK> Ground controllers sent a package of data to Mars overnight. This package was transmitted by a radio telescope in Canberra, Australia, because this dish
happened to be pointing towards Mars when the rover "woke up" on Wednesday.
<PhobosUK> :)
<PhobosUK> well it's not just you and me mary
<BUFOmary> www.
<PhobosUK> many people are noticing things and it looks like NASA are starting to react
<BUFOmary> and
<PhobosUK> eg. the nasa logo in the pictures should be blue but it is red
<BUFOmary> yes.
<BUFOmary> yes.. i think the combination of all of working together on this is really causing them to feel the heat
<PhobosUK> they will finally release images that reflect what a human would see - they finally see the need to do this<PhobosUK> its REDiculous that they havent alREDy
done so :)
<PhobosUK> when the images they post have known blue objects showing as red then people naturally ponder over why
<BUFOmary> good..about time.
<PhobosUK> if a billion dollers are paid to get photos, then the images should not come back with redwashed
<PhobosUK> blue was completely lost in the pictures they posted
<BUFOmary> I TOALLY AGREE with this!!
<PhobosUK> also people were starting to see what good colour images look like from Mars Express
Exploring the Unknown   
Mary Sutherland

Brad and Mary Sutherland
248 Carver Street
Winslow, Illinois 61089
815 367 1006